Yeah, I read the National Review Online article in which the psychologist blames the dissolution of her marriage on pornography.
I do think there’s such a thing as sex addiction, and such a thing as porn addiction, but I think that both are a lot rarer than people think.
But this part from the National Review article was absolutely amazing:
Schneider found that among the 68 percent of couples in which one person was addicted to Internet porn, one or both had lost interest in sex.
Yeah, me too: which partner lost interest in sex? The one who is watching/reading the porn? Or the one who shut him/her out the other one?
Dr. Helen gets into spanking. Of course, Dr. H chalks the NRO article up to “an attempt to control male sexuality.” Which is perhaps 49% of the situation: the same people who want to ban pornography also want to control female sexuality—but in slightly different ways. And, of course, the psuedo-libertarians in the comments over at Pajamas Media are as tedious-yet-amusing as usual, and persist in explaining how easy it is to keep a man around the house. Just “keep him fed,” and “give him sex.” Keep him fed? And give him sex on his own schedule? I like doing both of those things for my husband as much as the next girl, but most people have three meals a day, and at least one snack, plus that daily/weekly/monthly sex session . . . how many hours a day do these people recommend a woman devote to keeping her man, in addition to whatever she does to earn a living? That ain’t libertarianism—it’s slavery. Listen to the words you’re saying, people. Or: typing.
Apparently, conservatism means being either sexually repressed, or a house elf to your man. No thanks, kids.
Via . . . Hot Air, I’m pretty sure. Sure: Hot Air.
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What is this “sex” you speak of?
Joy, there are so many things I could say but I’ll confine myself to this. You nailed it here:
But this part from the National Review article was absolutely amazing:
Oops! Apparently I am too dense to figure out your blockquote tags :p Only the italicized portion of my comment above belonged in the blockquote.
This struck me in Dr. Helen’s post: “a sense that they have the right to control men, and men’s sexuality, in their own interest.”
I would hope that a wife would have some right to control the sexuality of her own husband (and he hers). When a partner commits adultery, they not only devastate their spouse emotionally, and break promises made before God and their families, but also they put them at risk of disease and/or death. At a minimum, a spouse should have a right to expect that their husband or wife should control at least the outward expression of sexuality, with other people. That doesn’t seem excessive control.
As to porn? I have no interest in it myself so I don’t understand its appeal. I realize that plenty of people like porn, and it’s their business.
The overlap with the sexual abuse of children troubles me: the abused kids who have porn made of them, the porn stars who were abused as kids, etc. Perhaps the consumers are nice churchgoing types who are kind to their spouses and children and behave well in public, but for every happy porn star, I’d be willing to bet money there are 10 addicted, abused, and exploited people. It’s a bit like buying products made by slave or child labor: the price may be right, you may like the product, but there was a lot of human exploitation involved in the production process.
If my spouse were addicted to porn I would probably leave him, as it would make me feel insecure, as if I weren’t good enough for him, and exacerbate the usual mix of negative feelings most middle aged women have about their appearance. At a minimum, it would be a sign that he was very dissatisfied with the marriage.
Then again, some of us who blog, are just as obsessed and spend more hours online than people who enjoy raunchy porn, so who is to say who is the more selfish? I don’t mean to be a killjoy and it seems harmless if the person is single or if both spouses find it exciting and a spark to a better love life together, or if they are separated a long time from each other.
Whatever a spouse’s view, it seems that simple consideration for the feelings of a spouse who might find it unsettling would lead the person to clear his internet history and password his bookmarks, so as not to upset his wife. He has a real woman with real feelings that MIGHT be upset by finding it. I tend to be less judgmental about teen boys’ use of porn as (in my social group) we expect them to behave with sexual restraint in their teens, despite raging hormones. And curiousity and young lust are strong…But it’s something a kid should be discreet about.
I suspect that married people turn to porn for the excitement and fantasy they crave that is lacking in their marital love life. DUH. Then again, a friend from church with a very happy marriage enjoys porn, and so I am probably just narrow minded…Perhaps they get ideas for ways to have more fun in bed with their spouse? Then again (not the friends, but some people I know) Perhaps it is a way of expressing hostility to a nagging, cold or critical spouse? Or a substitute addiction for someone recovered from an abuse to alcohol or drugs?
Just random thoughts. My friends consider me a fuddy duddy.
I just think that a lot of men have trouble masturbating without some visuals, and since no one is home/available every single night . . . But, no, Cassandra: I have not Googled pron in relation to ED. It would seem to me that either the “hydraulics” would work, or they would not.
And the description of the NRO writer of a man actually turning down sex because he’d been looking at porn simply didn’t ring true to me. I mean, sure–one individual. But a trend of men turning down real sex so they can choke the chicken to pictures? I’m having trouble buying that.
I would hope that a wife would have some right to control the sexuality of her own husband (and he hers)…
Be a little careful here, as you’re changing quantifiers: complete control is rather different from some control.
And the description of the NRO writer of a man actually turning down sex because he’d been looking at porn simply didn’t ring true to me. I mean, sure–one individual. But a trend of men turning down real sex so they can choke the chicken to pictures? I’m having trouble buying that.
Define “real sex”.
I agree with you to some extent. However, if “real sex” includes “I don’t find you attractive, I don’t really want sex, but if you finish all the chores I set for you early enough, we can do it on Sunday afternoon as long as we’re doing it in missionary position and I’m on a towel so nothing will get messy” then I don’t find it at all hard to imagine.
C.M., what an awful woman!
Joy, I agree with you. Something else must have been going on. Male or female, most red blooded people would rather hold a live person than pant over a computer screen (or, in the case of a female, sigh over some dashing Russell Crowe Gladiator in a movie(. I think most people (male or female) withhold sex when there are problems far greater in scope than what kinds of fantasies excite either or both of them. In other words, the resentments, lack of love, etc. preceded the end of sex. Just as an affair never “causes” a divorce, but usually a marriage is crumbling anyway, and the person is more susceptible to flattery/excitement/understanding/whatever and their self-control is lessened because they are pissed at their spouse.
I think another factor in some of these fights over pron or sex generally is concurrent medical illness. Blood pressure meds can cause ED, for example. Many of the medicines that keep people healthier and living longer (or not depressed) do a number on desire. Which is tough for the non medicated spouse. So, for example, if a certain professor had been treated for depression (not saying that one in the article, just hypothesizing) and lost interest in sex, then spouse turned more and more to porn (it’s hardly damning if a guy liked porn in teenage years, as I have never met a man who didn’t), and the spouse upset by it pathologized it to say “It was always an addiction, his Achilles heel…” One scenario, then, could have been that the guy reverted to what had worked during his adolescent, frustrated years, as his marriage became more frustrating?
I think the concept of addiction is over used vis a vis porn and sex (eg: that jackass TW) anyway.
The idea that a man is going to turn down sex because of Porn is laughable.
If there is one danger to porn in terms of a relationship is that it can change the expectations of the person watching it.
But its a moot point, it’s a sin and like any sin should be avoided because it is sin.
As far as sex in a marriage it is a tough call, particularly for a man. There is a frustration first of all because with children it is a question of timing so that hurts your frequency. Second of all the worst sex is ok lets get it over with sex so you have to be careful in your pursuit to respect your wife.
And of course if you don’t pursue you might also hurt your wife’s self confidence too. She needs to know that you want her and appreciate her.
It’s a tough call, like everything in marriage it isn’t always easy, particularly as the years go by but most worthwhile things in life aren’t easy.
You can see more women naked in a couple of hours on the web than any man did in his lifetime just a decade or two ago. That may have some effect. [There is that nasty brain/”chicken” interface] Plus, beds have not gotten much bigger in the same time frame.
Moderation in all things, respect and keep your vows always. And cut the victim crap.
As a chocolate bar has been designed to be more appealing to us than a piece of fruit, so porn has been deliberately designed to be more exciting than your average real life sexual partner.
I think the main problem is the age at which a person starts watching porn. If they are exposed to it long before any personal sexual experiences, the personal experience may result in disenchantment with reality.
Eh, so that’s my $ .02.
I’m not sure I buy the idea of masturbation as a sin. Porn that isn’t drawn might be covered, however, under the “committing adultery in one’s heart” issue.
Charlie, when you wrote “‘I don’t find you attractive, I don’t really want sex, but if you finish all the chores I set for you early enough, we can do it on Sunday afternoon as long as we’re doing it in missionary position and I’m on a towel so nothing will get messy’” I was trying to figure out why the guy wanted to be on a towel, and trying to reason out whether it still counted as “missionary” if the woman was on top. I only got your real meaning on the fourth read or so.
It helps to figure out what one’s partner thinks about “quickies.” I theorize that they may work for men better than they do for women, as a rule. Given the fact that the female libido sometimes takes a longer time to start up properly, fast sex may often be a favor that the woman does for the man, NTTAWWT. And masturbation may be faster than any quickie, for either sex–probably a consideration when one needs to get to sleep in a hurry (say, if there’s an early call in the morning, or something like that).
I just don’t see why people can’t be a bit nicer to each other–particularly, people they married.
C.M., what an awful woman!
Actually, in many ways a fine woman. Being married to her had its problems.
I only got your real meaning on the fourth read or so.
See above. This wasn’t a hypothetical.
I just don’t see why people can’t be a bit nicer to each other–particularly, people they married.
I can dig it.
Having just gotten an extremely kind email, I did want to call attention to something else I wrote in the context of the debate:
Any time a discussion of a sexual issue in marriage includes an implication of “it’s all his/her fault”, it’s not.
I’ll be happy to discuss this with you as soon as you finish the dishes.
Seriously, though, Susan Sontag once wrote, “If you watch a pornographic movie for 20 minutes, you want to have sex right away. If you watch one for two hours, you’ll never want to have sex again.”
I can tell you from experience she’s right. Back when I was working with a low-level production company that was talking about doing some of my scripts, I wound up pulling an all-nighter editing a porn movie for one of their friends. The same sex scenes over and over and over, in and out and in and out and in and out and up and down and up and down and up and down and around and around and around….
it was a bigger turn-off than an 8X10 of Joy Behar,
“Porn that isn’t drawn might be covered, however, under the “committing adultery in one’s heart” issue.”
What if it’s drawn really really well?
What if it’s drawn really really well?
“I’m not bad. I’m just drawn that way.”
Porn characters have the bodies of models, the brains of rabbits, will do anything for anybody, and don’t mind being treated as disposable objects. All women (and men) depart from this picture on at least one point, and quite a few depart on all points.
The psychological harm done by porn to a mature adult in a healthy relationship is probably small at best; but when the viewer is not mature, or the viewer’s relationships are not healthy, then many people will take the easy way out, and use porn to smooth over the difficulties in real life. This provides the rewards that ideally would be gained by growing more mature or fixing the relationship, and thus can delay what really needs to be done.
Any time a discussion of a sexual issue in marriage includes an implication of “it’s all his/her fault”, it’s not.
I think I’m in love with Charlie :p
Is that wrong???
*running away*
I think I’m in love with Charlie :p
Yeah, yeah, it’s always the married ones.